Ben Greenfield [00:00:00]: My name is Ben Greenfield, and on this episode of the Boundless Life podcast, when you see somebody or you hear somebody talking, especially a man, about what they're feeling, what are some things before somebody's even gone in for a lab test, if a guy is describing the way that he feels, that you just, like, know classically. Yeah, this, this is for sure low testosterone.

Evan Miller [00:00:20]: I'll tell you what it is at first. So if you ask 10 guys on the street, hey, man, do you have erectile dysfunction? Because that's a symptom of low testosterone. Zero of them are going, yep, that's me. I got it. No.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:30]: Yeah.

Evan Miller [00:00:30]: So very rarely are they going to lead with, man, I just can't perform it. The biggest one, and it's the safest one really, is I just don't sleep well. You know, something's up with my sleep.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:39]: Really?

Evan Miller [00:00:40]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:40]: That's surprisingly. That's your. That's your top answer. Sleep, huh?

Evan Miller [00:00:43]: Sleep is the biggie. It really is. As you get older and as you take on more. Right. As a guy, more stress, more responsibility. Certainly if you have family or kids, it all compounds. Your endocrine system takes a beating. And when your endocrine system takes a beating, the first thing that goes, sleep.

Ben Greenfield [00:00:59]: Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host, Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist, and nutritionist. And I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity, and beyond. All right. My guest founded Game Day Men's Health, but actually has a background in clinical psychology. His name is Evan Miller. Evan, where'd you go from clinical psychology to optimizing men's health?

Evan Miller [00:01:36]: Yeah, it's an interesting road. I opened a addiction treatment center when I got my PhD. Kind of fell in love with that space. It was the first time I was practicing therapy, kind of sitting knee to knee with somebody. Quickly realized that I didn't want to do that for my. My whole career. I just wanted a little more, you know, variety. And so I said, let me start an addiction treatment center.

Evan Miller [00:01:57]: And so started a center in Orange County. It was just small, six bed center, and we blew it up. You know, we were just doing really good work, helping a lot of people recover from drugs and alcohol.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:05]: I was going to say, when you. When you say addictions, are we talking like, hard stuff like heroin, cocaine, you name it?

Evan Miller [00:02:11]: Yeah, yeah. Heroin, cocaine, meth, all the opioids, alcohol. You know, interestingly, the opiate and the meth detoxes are actually a lot simpler. And straightforward than alcohol and, like, benzos, like Xanax. So I don't know. Most folks don't know this, but alcohol detox and then, like, benzos, Xanax and Valium, those are, like, the two most lethal drugs to come off because you can have seizures and all these things. So we were taking folks straight off the street, helping them get better, and it was awesome. It was really rewarding work.

Evan Miller [00:02:41]: But addiction treatment, dude, it's 24 7.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:44]: I can imagine it's probably. Probably a little depressing, too.

Evan Miller [00:02:48]: It is.

Ben Greenfield [00:02:48]: I mean, not that working with guys with low testosterone might not be depressing, but addiction sounds pretty depressing.

Evan Miller [00:02:55]: So, I mean, the stats are pretty bad, right? So one in ten are lucky to have a year of sobriety. But you know what's cool, though? Ben is like, the ones that do, you've saved them, you've saved their family, and it's super transformative stuff. You see the light come back in their eyes. There's really nothing more rewarding, you know, helping guys with low testosterone, honestly, you know, someone on death's door, um, that's significant. You know, revolutionizing men's health is. Is massive. But it's different, you know, it's different in terms of, like, the. The lethality of it.

Evan Miller [00:03:29]: Anyway, had the addiction center and then jumped into, what do I want to do next? So I was at a point in my life where, like I said, I was pretty burnt out, didn't know what I wanted to do. So I sold half the company back to a partner and went to Hawaii. You just got back from Australia, but I went to Hawaii. And if you spend any time in Maui, you know there's healers all over the island, right?

Ben Greenfield [00:03:50]: Oh, yeah. Maybe not as many as, like, Sedona, but yeah, there's a lot of, like, weekend shamans. Yeah, healers, Invisible chakra energy quantum practitioners.

Evan Miller [00:04:03]: And Maui, for those of you who don't know, is one of the, you know, main chakras of the world. So you can feel the vibrations and all that, if you're into that stuff. Anyway, met him. His name was Magic, and he's like, all right, we're going on a journey. And, you know, it was just walking around these crazy part of, like, the backside of the north side of Maui.

Ben Greenfield [00:04:20]: It was.

Evan Miller [00:04:20]: It was amazing. But I was one of those guys who was in Hawaii, and I was depressed. I'm like, I don't. I don't do well when I've got nothing to do. I like to be busy, and I like to be working On a mission or a project. And I had nothing at the time. And so I was. I thought of every idea you can imagine.

Evan Miller [00:04:34]: I'm going to. You name it, you know, it's just coming out of my head. And so he goes, what are you going to do next? And I was like, I have these ideas. He goes, dude, you're thinking about it wrong. I was always thinking about what's the next biggest industry or what's the best exit or how can I make the most money. He's like, stop, bro. You need to start here. You start right here.

Evan Miller [00:04:55]: What's in your heart. And if you do what's in your heart, the rest will flow from there. And it's the stuff that all the spiritual traditions talk about. But for me, it was Men's Health. I'm like, look, the part I loved about addiction treatment the most was helping guys recover. And I thought, how can I take guys who are not just struggling with addiction, which is this narrow segment, and make it to. Most guys throughout the United States dug into the research, and low testosterone kept popping up. I'm like, huh, that's interesting.

Evan Miller [00:05:19]: I was 34 at the time and went and got my levels checked and not, you know, I went to the doctor. I'm like, hey, I want to do a full panel. Can you check my testosterone? You're 34, you're fine. Come back in, you know, 10, 15 years. I'm like, no, please, can I check my testosterone? Fine. And came back 237 total teeth, which, for those of you out there don't know, that's low. You know, I was 34 years old. It should not be that low.

Ben Greenfield [00:05:42]: And by the way, was this, like, the type of doctor who would do, like, was he looking at free T and DHT and estrogen, or was it just total tea at this point?

Evan Miller [00:05:51]: Yeah, it was a full panel, so I had to request total T. I think I was lucky if I got a free T in there or anything beyond that, or an estrogen or prolactin. But that was the number for me was that 237. And so that's kind of when the light bulb went off, I went, huh, Here's a guy like you, Ben, taking care of myself my whole life. Played sports, know how to eat well, know how to sleep, know all this stuff, but still walking around at 237, you know, and I went, okay, there's something here. And so then I dug in, and I'm, like, looking at the market, and it was weird, dude. I remember back, like, 10, 15 years ago, the testosterone place was just sketchy and it was like the old man on the yacht with like the 18 year old girlfriend. And that was like the industry.

Evan Miller [00:06:30]: So I thought, there's something more to this. Let me dive in. And I thought, look, I'm going to create a model here for guys where they can come in and feel better fast. And I grew up an athlete. I'm like, let's put it in this man cave environment. We hate going to the doctor. If I tell you, Ben, I mean, you're probably different, but most guys here, Ben, go to LabCorp, get your labs done. You're gonna go, okay, dude, maybe in a month.

Evan Miller [00:06:53]: And I'll have to call you. Hey, did you go to LabCorp? No. No. All right, you gotta go. That's the average experience for most guys. I don't wanna go to get my blood drawn because I hate needles, I'm a big baby and I don't wanna spend all day at the doctor's office. So that's where I started was like, how do I create a model that's comfortable? I mean, see, you've got Kobe in the background place guys wanna hang out, just like a lounge and then make it fast. And so that's what we did.

Ben Greenfield [00:07:15]: Kind of reminds me a little bit of like, you know the sport clip for haircut franchise where you go and watch a game and it's kind of like a manly man cave type of environment.

Evan Miller [00:07:24]: Yeah, a bit of that. I mean, certainly we get associated with them a lot. We're trying to honestly, and we'll get to this. But you know, a franchise feels there's like a cheapening when you think of it's a franchise, it's cookie cutter and all that, especially healthcare, dude. Like we're not, we don't want to be associated with that. Cause that's not what we do. And I'm sure we'll get into this in the podcast, but what we do is pretty tailored specifically to guys. But the overall theme.

Evan Miller [00:07:45]: Yeah. Was like, how do you create a model that is mass appeal and it gets guys in and out fast. And so for us, I thought, I'm going to put a lab in every single game day. And that's what made the process just hit.

Ben Greenfield [00:07:55]: A lot of guys don't know they have low testosterone. And you certainly see reports that it's happening at a younger and younger age. This idea of andropause, I hear some questioning that maybe it's different testing methods or maybe we're just identifying it and testing people at an earlier age, maybe. But regardless, people do test out with low testosterone. But I often hear guys say things like, look, I've got pretty good libido. I don't have erectile dysfunction. I'm sure my testosterone is fine. Something else must be going on.

Ben Greenfield [00:08:33]: But when you see somebody or you hear somebody talking, especially a man, about what they're feeling, what are some things, before somebody's even gone in for a lab test, if a guy is describing the way that he feels, that you just know classically for sure, this is for sure. Low testosterone.

Evan Miller [00:08:50]: That's the question right there. So I'll tell you what it is at first. So if you ask 10 guys on the street, hey, man, do you have erectile dysfunction? Because that's a symptom of low testosterone. Zero of them are going, yep, that's me, I got it. No. So very rarely are they going to lead with, man, I just can't perform. The biggest one. And it's the safest one, really, is I just don't sleep well.

Evan Miller [00:09:10]: You know, something's up with my sleep.

Ben Greenfield [00:09:12]: Really?

Evan Miller [00:09:13]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:09:13]: That's surprisingly. That's your. That's your top answer. Sleep, huh?

Evan Miller [00:09:16]: Sleep is the biggie. It really is. As you get older and as you take on more. Right. As a guy, more stress, more responsibility. Certainly if you have family or kids, it all compounds. Your endocrine system takes a beating. And when your endocrine system takes a beating, the first thing that goes to sleep.

Evan Miller [00:09:32]: And so a lot of guys come indoor. Just like, man, I haven't slept well in years. You know, I'm lucky if I get three hours. And it's super bumpy and choppy sleep. That's a huge one. And energy levels. So sleep and energy. Once guys come in and start thinking, man, I just don't fit in it, they go, I think it's because I'm not sleeping well.

Evan Miller [00:09:48]: That's why I have low energy. Well, sure, but there's probably something else going on here, and those are kind of leading indicators of, you know, what's happening. But beyond that, you're not going to know until you kind of do some labs.

Ben Greenfield [00:10:02]: Okay, so the labs, then somebody comes in, maybe they got the low sleep, they have low motivation. I know that recovery from workouts is another big one. Sometimes excess adiposity, you do the testing. What are you actually looking at? You rattled off some things. So did I. Like prolactin, total T, free T, et cetera. But walk me through the labs piece.

Evan Miller [00:10:23]: Yeah. So this is the kind of big differentiator for game day. So we take what's called a three step process and it's a free consult for every guy around the country. We believe it's every guy's right to know his levels and so we don't charge for labs or the consult. So step one is you come in free labs at every single game day throughout the country. We have 368 game days open today. We'll have 500 open this year. You're going to come in, we're going to do total T, we're going to do your hemoglobin and hematocrit, which is your red blood cell count, and we're going to do your psa, which is your prostate levels.

Evan Miller [00:10:54]: And that's all done on site within 15 minutes. Total T is going to let us know what's going on with your testosterone. PSA lets us know what's happening with your prostate levels and then your red blood cell count lets us know how thick your blood is, more or less. And it's a good baseline. Start that. Step two is then meeting with our clinician. We have licensed clinicians, we have over 600 licensed NPS and PAS in our system that are supervised by another 600 MDs. So we're the largest network in the country in terms of medical oversight for what we do. They have a consultation with you, they're going through your history, medical symptoms, background, current medications, all the things you do at a normal doctor's office, then looking at the lab results and then making a determination from there.

Evan Miller [00:11:36]: We'll then send out that sample we took in the clinic for a comprehensive panel which includes the more comprehensive stuff. You're talking estrogen, CBCs, prolactin, SHBG, LH, FSH, all the big hormone panel. And then if you're qualified, we get you started. And this is all done within about an hour. So again, speed is the name of the game for guys and that's what we've done really well.

Ben Greenfield [00:11:59]: Talk to me about the blood thickness part, the hemoglobin and hematocrit.

Evan Miller [00:12:03]: So it's important to know what your HNH, hemoglobin, hematocrit is at a baseline and normal levels should be kind of like hemoglobin below a 17. And I'm saying this based on guidelines. I have to say I'm not an MD. We have 350 of them. But the Game Day protocols are all based on endocrine society. So you want baseline level of hemoglobin below 17 means that your blood's kind of in that normal thickening state. What happens when most guys start testosterone replacement is the red blood cell count increases, and that's when you feel all those great benefits. Like, whoa.

Evan Miller [00:12:35]: I mean, you're on a treadmill now, right? I can, you know, work out, walk forever. My strength is increased. I recover faster. All the benefits of higher red blood cell counts, more oxygenation to the muscles. If your blood becomes too thick, meaning that your hemoglobin levels become too high, you're talking over 19, over 20. These are higher levels. Then think about your blood going through your veins. It's like a pipe.

Evan Miller [00:12:57]: It's like sludge. It's harder to move through. And that's when you want to watch out for any of those adverse symptoms, potentially a stroke, because it's not easily managed. So you want to make sure on the front end that we know exactly where the levels are at.

Ben Greenfield [00:13:12]: Okay, so help me understand this. If somebody gets on testosterone replacement therapy and let's say their HNH goes up, is the only option you have then decreasing the amount of testosterone that they're on, or is there something else that you do?

Evan Miller [00:13:27]: Great question. Yeah. So there's a few options. So number one, you know, and it's. I say this kind of tongue in cheek, but a lot of guys who come in and their HNH, all of a sudden skyrockets. It's Monday morning, and they had themselves a weekend, right? And they're super dehydrated, and they're like, oh, man, I was in Mexico and, you know, we went hard. Well, dude, go and drink a gallon of water. Oftentimes, that's all it is, is hydrating. And so they'll come back, we'll check it again.

Evan Miller [00:13:49]: And we do this all in the office, guys. It's all done in our clinics. You walk right in, know your levels fast, and the levels go right back to where they should be. So usually dehydration is a culprit. If it's not, and it's. It is like an elevated H and H level, then, you know, you can take a supplement that includes like, a grape. Grapefruit seed extract, which is something you can get on Amazon, that oftentimes helps lower the levels. And then number three is therapeutic phlebotomy, which, you know, guys don't like doing, but sometimes you have to have it done, which is where you go to, like, a red cross and donate.

Evan Miller [00:14:24]: Donate blood, and that'll bring the levels back down to normal.

Ben Greenfield [00:14:27]: What do you think about things like two common agents that people tell you not to use or to stop using prior to surgery. Fish oil and aspirin. What do you think about those as far as ways to kind of help keep the blood thin?

Evan Miller [00:14:40]: Yeah. I mean, some guys will take a baby aspirin as well every day. That can help. Oftentimes, you know, splitting the dose in half. And I'm saying this based on what all of our physicians do at game day. You know, if you do one big shot of testosterone a week, right. Maybe it's 200 milligrams that can. Right.

Evan Miller [00:14:58]: Cause a big spike in your. In your testosterone levels, but also your red blood cell count. Breaking that injection up into two separate injections per week, that also helps. So there's kind of an art to the science of managing your red blood cell count. So you have options beyond just, oh, I got to lower my dose and go donate blood.

Ben Greenfield [00:15:16]: I just got started working with Game Day three months ago, and so far, it's been fantastic, by the way, it feels like really good concierge service. And I've been tested twice now. Is that an approximate frequency of testing? Is it like monthly, quarterly, or what do you advise as far as how often to check on these values, like HNH, total testosterone free, et cetera.

Evan Miller [00:15:40]: So this is something we take a lot of pride in, the endocrine guidelines, and they're the gold standard, right. They're putting out how hormone therapy should be done. They say, we want you checked for your labs every six months. What we realized early on at game day was that is not enough. It's not enough at all for a few different reasons. Number one, here, Ben, here's some testosterone I'll see in six months. Let us know how it goes. You know, compliance is a problem.

Evan Miller [00:16:06]: You might do too much one week, and all of a sudden, your red blood cell count does increase, and you're walking around with too high of a blood cell count for months and months. On top of that, we want to make sure that you're feeling well. You know, if I send you off in the wind for six months, how do I know that you know you're actually feeling better? We need more constant touch points. So what we do at game day. And it's great. You mentioned that you've been on three months, you've had two labs. That's the game day way. We do labs more than anyone else in the country for what we offer, and they're done at least quarterly.

Evan Miller [00:16:34]: So you're going to get that initial panel, and then we Want you back within, like, six weeks, and then at 90 days, 120 days and so on, because it just helps, number one, create, like, a relationship with the patient. We really do want you to feel better. And with constant touch points, that's how we can get it done. And it helps you be more compliant. You know, you get, like I said, you give a guy a vial of testosterone, and he's off to the races, and six months later he walks in. Is that testosterone's at 2000, and you're going, dude, what have you been doing? So six months is just not frequent enough, in our opinion.

Ben Greenfield [00:17:06]: Yeah. Okay, so hopefully you don't mind me just peppering you with all these logistical questions, because these are a lot of the questions I get, too, from clients or friends. So the delivery mechanism for testosterone, let's say you go in, you test, you're certifiably low, you need testosterone. But then, I mean. And I don't think the podcasting industry has helped as much at all, because you hear about sprays and you hear about pellets, and you hear about lotions and creams and injectables. Do you guys have, like, one specific method that you use at game day, or do you. Do you tailor it according to the client or how's that look?

Evan Miller [00:17:41]: Tailor it to the client for sure. Having said that, the injections, testosterone injections, those are the gold standard. They've been around forever. There's the most research around them. Testosterone sip unit is the testosterone that most offices use. The half life is seven to 10 days. So you take an injection and it's out of your system and, you know, a week and a half later, so it's easily managed. So that's option number one.

Evan Miller [00:18:03]: The problem with option number one, meaning injections, is guess what? Most guys hate injections, right? Who loves giving themselves a shot or having a shot. So we have other options for guys who, for example, don't want to do injections and. Or travel a lot. Right. Imagine bringing around needles and syringes if you're always on the go.

Ben Greenfield [00:18:19]: Well, that. That's my problem. I'm. I'm not on injections, by the way. I'm. I'm on a cream, and I travel, like, 14 days out every month easily.

Evan Miller [00:18:27]: So for you, injections would be super cumbersome. You're going through security of, you know, what does this guy have all these needles for? That's always the concern. So cream is a great option for someone like you. Cream has its benefits, which is easy to use. Right. Put in your suitcase. Off you go. One of the downsides of cream, though, is, like, you might not get the same.

Evan Miller [00:18:45]: The same spikes week over week. There can be variability, and certainly if you, you know, you sweat more or if, you know, you rub your cream on, you know, your clothing, you're not getting the same kind of absorption. So there's. There's a drawback there. The other option for guys who travel a lot like you is pellets. And so these are little. They almost look like little grains of rice. And they're testosterone pellets that are implanted under the skin, kind of in the glute area, and they last three to four months.

Evan Miller [00:19:12]: So those are super effective as well. You know, they dissolve over time. One of the drawbacks of pellets, though, is once they're in, they're in.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:18]: Right. You can't. You can't. You can't adjust dosage, right?

Evan Miller [00:19:22]: No, no, you can't adjust. Once they're in, they're in, but they'll burn off in a few months. The final option is kind of a newer option that's come out is oral. And so we've partnered with. With a company called Kyzatrex that offers the oral testosterone. They have a lot of positive research. It's still a newer form, but, you know, if guys were to say, hey, what I prefer is take a pill, it actually bypasses the liver, so there's not a lot of liver toxicity with it. And so we've seen a lot of success with that as well.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:47]: Yeah. And don't you have to take, like, metric crap, tons of fat when you take the. The testosterone oral? The pill?

Evan Miller [00:19:56]: Yeah, it's helpful. It's certainly helpful to eat a lot of fat.

Ben Greenfield [00:19:59]: Yeah, I made that, or I tried oral, and I still felt better on the cream. But when I tried the oral, I, for a couple of months, wasn't consuming enough fat and didn't realize how much almond butter and coconut milk. And coconut. All this stuff I had to put in my morning smoothie along with the testosterone to actually get the effects, the absorption.

Evan Miller [00:20:20]: Yeah, no, that's super important. But, I mean, to your point. Yeah, it's tailored to the guy. I'd say the majority of the men at game day and we treat millions of guys throughout the country, are on the injections.

Ben Greenfield [00:20:29]: Yeah. Yeah. The things that you prescribe or use along with testosterone are obviously important. I'm on gonadotropin. It's this little pill. I've been working with Judd and Nate up at the Coeur D' Alene, Game Day. Save me on the gonadotropin to help out with maintaining ball size. I think a lot of times you'll do that for fertility.

Ben Greenfield [00:20:49]: Also, what are some of the other things that you guys have access to or commonly use in conjunction with testosterone?

Evan Miller [00:20:57]: Yeah, so testosterone. Great question. Testosterone by itself causes your body to go, okay, I'm getting testosterone from an outside source. Your body's smart. It goes, okay, I guess I don't need to produce it myself anymore. And so your testicles, right, they're obviously producing it. They're going to more or less shut down that production. And that's when you might see testicular shrinkage.

Evan Miller [00:21:18]: Some guys really are upset by that. Other guys, they're like, who cares? It's cosmetic. It's really patient specific. But in order to maintain testicular function, especially if guys want to still have kids, at some point, there are some other options. Number one is gonadalen. Like you mentioned, Ben, there's another medication called hcg. And so both of those help maintain testicular function, maintain fertility and sperm count while on testosterone, sipping it.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:44]: Got it. And by the way, I think I said gonadotropin. It's gonadarelin.

Evan Miller [00:21:47]: Gonadorelin.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:48]: And then HCG is human chorionic gonadotropin, Right?

Evan Miller [00:21:52]: Correct.

Ben Greenfield [00:21:52]: Okay, so I misspoke. So it's gonadorelin is a little pellet that you just dissolve under your tongue. And then HCG, Is that usually an injection?

Evan Miller [00:22:00]: Injection. You got it.

Ben Greenfield [00:22:01]: Okay, got it. What about. Because I did an interview last year on Men's Health, and my guest was talking a lot about Clomid and enclomiphene. Do you guys use those at all?

Evan Miller [00:22:11]: We do, yeah. And they're awesome. And so there's kind of a tiered approach here, right? Think about it, like, right, JV and then varsity and Clomiphene and Clomid, they're going to basically tell your body to produce more of your own testosterone. They're going to almost trigger it. Like a peptide with. Peptides are super popular right now. They're great for guys who still want to preserve 100% of their fertility, because again, when you just use injectable testosterone, you're going to probably have a lower sperm count over time. And for those guys who are still wanting to have more kids, you're going to have to get that sperm count back up at some point, which means getting off testosterone.

Evan Miller [00:22:48]: And clomiphene or Clomid, these are their pill form, and they help maintain Your natural production of testosterone. So they're going to give you that bump. Probably not as much as testosterone injections, where they can get your levels much higher. But a lot of guys who are on Clomid, you know, say their levels started at a 300. They get them up to maybe a 600. And we have a ton of data around our patient base that shows this as well. So really great option, maintains fertility. It's the JV level of hormone replacement, and it doesn't impact your fertility like testosterone injections would.

Ben Greenfield [00:23:20]: Okay, so let's say I'm 34 years old. I'm not done having kids yet. I get on testosterone. I feel great. My wife and I have a chat. We want to increase fertility, have kids. You would cycle me off testosterone, transition me to Clomid or enclomiphene until I was past that fertility goal, and then I could transition back onto testosterone, for example.

Evan Miller [00:23:41]: Nailed it. Bingo. Okay, got it. Exactly. Happens all the time.

Ben Greenfield [00:23:44]: Okay, got it. Interesting, because a lot of guys here, once you're on, you're on. And maybe you'd even take enclomiphene or Clomid simultaneous to the testosterone, but something like that would enable you to just stop, get fertility as high as you can, and then get back on whenever you want to.

Evan Miller [00:23:58]: Correct? Yeah, correct.

Ben Greenfield [00:23:59]: Okay. Okay, got it. Now that, obviously, I'm sure some people will wonder, this 34 sounds young. How often is it that a guy comes in and I realize this might kind of sound like shooting yourself in the foot. From a men's testosterone clinic standpoint, how often do you say, dude, you need to sleep more, stress less, get more sunlight, lift some heavy weights, get more vitamin D and fat intake? How often are you looking at these lifestyle factors before you just say, here's a needle.

Evan Miller [00:24:29]: So at game day, we say no, much more than we say yes. And for those reasons specifically, testosterone replacement is kind of the final solution for guys who've tried everything. So, guys, certainly we get a lot of younger dudes who are maybe in their 20s, and it's like, hey, let's focus on lifestyle first. You're going to want to have kids at some point. I'm sure most guys do. Uh, let's figure out, hey, how can you optimize what you're eating, your exercise, your sleep, your water intake, and then supplementation. That's the first start. Um, if things are still not improving at that point, then we can look at the AI.

Evan Miller [00:25:08]: You know, alternative options. Maybe it's a Clomid to start with, and then beyond that is testosterone replacement. So we actually have, you know, every single patient runs into our database. We have a huge data warehouse. The numbers we have are, you know, we. We do things by the book. We're not prescribing testosterone to young guys who are fresh out of the Marine Corps. You know, that's not.

Evan Miller [00:25:29]: That's not the vibe for those guys. It's just, you know, get in the gym, take care of yourself. You can lift your normal testosterone levels beyond what you would imagine. It's for guys who are a little bit later, right, in life. You know, not in life, but, like, guys who have tried those things. And sometimes it's in your 30s. Like, when I started game day, I was 34. Sometimes it's 40s, 50s, 60s.

Evan Miller [00:25:50]: But it's for guys who have tripped, tried the lifestyle stuff, didn't really get the bump they wanted. And at some point, they're weighing, okay, do I want to start a hormone replacement journey, or do I want to maintain my current status quo? At some point in every man's life, you look in the mirror, right, Ben, and you go, I just don't feel the same, dude. The light switch got turned off. I feel like crap. And most guys go. And their wives are usually the ones you tell them. They're like, babe, you're depressed. You need to go to the doctor, and I want you to think about getting on an antidepressant, because you're not the same guy.

Evan Miller [00:26:24]: You sit on the couch, you have no spark, you have no joy. We will have one. When his first thought or her first thought isn't, go to the doctor and get on a pill, Go to Game Day and get tested. Because oftentimes low testosterone looks just like depression.

Ben Greenfield [00:26:37]: Well, looks like. Or I would say, even can be. Because if you have low testosterone, a lot of times you're not moving. Maybe your relationships suffer, you're not having sex with as much, and you're not engaging in a lot of the things that would naturally fight depression. So I think in some ways, you could synonymize the two.

Evan Miller [00:26:52]: Yeah, yeah. And there's tons of overlap. All the symptoms are the same. Low energy, poor mood, decreased interest in life, poor sleep, poor sex drive. Those are all symptoms of depression. And so they certainly go hand in hand. The problem is, a lot of guys go and they're getting on these antidepressants, and then we have to untangle them. They walk in a game day, they're like, I feel worse.

Evan Miller [00:27:12]: You know, I feel like I'm numbed out. I have no joy yeah, I'm not super depressed, but I'm also not happy. I'm just here.

Ben Greenfield [00:27:19]: Zombie mode.

Evan Miller [00:27:20]: Zombie mode, dude. And we got to get them right off it. And again, we'll work with their therapists and psychiatrists, but a lot of times those guys get on tier two and they're like, oh, okay, got it. This is it. And it's cool, right? Because we're kind of. We're the biggest in the country at game day. It's not by accident. It's because we do things the right way.

Evan Miller [00:27:39]: We're almost 400 doctors supervising all of our offices and we're helping guys get educated. Number one on how can I feel better? And maybe it's not just a pill. Maybe it is a hormone deficiency.

Ben Greenfield [00:27:51]: Yeah. Yeah. And I want to acknowledge, because I've had podcast guests on who have talked about this, that sometimes there is more than one way up the mountain. And I think more power to you if you are going to do like three or four cold plunges a day with the balls getting under and heavy deads and just the diet super dialed and sunning your balls and doing red light therapy. I think there's a way that you could biohack all of this. But there are people who, realistically, including, I would say I fit into that category. We're on a plane 14 days a month. We're in an office.

Ben Greenfield [00:28:27]: A lot of the time we're relegated to what life has offered up to us as far as the blessings of living in an era in which we can be indoors, working on computers, flying on planes. But sometimes the whole cold bath, sunlight thing doesn't quite fit the logistical bill.

Evan Miller [00:28:45]: No. And honestly, you, Ben and your audience, you guys would be considered the upper tier of highly educated, longevity, health conscious folks. The majority of this country are not anywhere near that. You know, maybe they've listened to a little Rogan. Maybe they little, they listen a little bit of you. But beyond that, they're like, I got my kids soccer game this week. I gotta work, I'm dad. And so they don't have the time to tweak out on like the latest stuff.

Evan Miller [00:29:13]: Right. Sauna, maybe? Cold plunge. Yeah, right. Those are the ones we want to reach, you know, because we don't. Honestly, at game day, we don't have to talk to the Rogan guys, the Goggins guys, the Ben Greenfield guys. They're already bought in. They know what's up. We're trying to reach the guy on the couch who's like, man, I just feel like shit.

Evan Miller [00:29:28]: What Do I do? And he's got barely enough time to take a shit, let alone listen to a podcast.

Ben Greenfield [00:29:34]: The pharmaceutical versus the compounding pharmacist thing, I think confuses a lot of people. When someone goes and they get tested and they get on testosterone, are they getting a prescription that they bring to Rosars or CVS or whatever? And getting a bag with the name of a pharmaceutical company on it, is this more of like the compounding thing? Which I think again, a lot of people don't quite understand. I realize it's kind of a big question, but can you differentiate and walk me through how the pharmacy piece works?

Evan Miller [00:30:01]: For sure. So compounding pharmacies versus pharmaceutical grade Compounding pharmacies are patient specific formulations. So if you think about what you get at cvs, there's certain. Right. Manufacturers that have certain dosages and it's kind of this, hey, take it or leave it. That's what we offer the beauty of compounding pharmacies. And this is what we use at game day. And I'll expl explain why is that.

Evan Miller [00:30:22]: We can go, hey, Ben Greenfield needs this and we're going to formulate it specifically on Ben's labs. We're going to make it based on what is the best interest of him. And it might be, hey, there's testosterone with a little DHEA in it. Right. We can do custom compounds specifically for you. Having said that, not all compounding pharmacies are created equal. And so I think this is where compounding gets a bad name, is the they're called certificate of analysis. It's basically how much quality, how much control goes into your processes.

Evan Miller [00:30:54]: This should be public information. In most states, patients can require the certificate of analysis from a compounding pharmacy at game day. We require every single batch of every single medication that goes to every single patient to have a coa. And our medical team reviews it to make sure it's the highest quality stuff. Oftentimes compounding pharmacies, they can say, no, I'm not going to send it. If a compounding pharmacy is not sending you their coa, that's a huge red flag. So we go kind of above and beyond to make sure that the standard is met. Similar to just pharmaceutical grade manufacturer like a Pfizer or some of the big guys.

Evan Miller [00:31:28]: We prefer compounding. We actually just acquired our own compounding pharmacy for this reason because it really is in the patient's best interest. You're formulating it based on your body and what it needs.

Ben Greenfield [00:31:39]: Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. What if you live in the sticks like you said, you guys are going to have, I think, over 500 clinics around the country, which is great, but some people are still going to be like, you know, two, three, four hours out. Is there any space for, like, teleconsultations, telemedicine, anything like that?

Evan Miller [00:31:57]: Yeah. So we launched telehealth about three months ago, and we can reach the rural areas, you know, all the white space that we don't have a game day in. And there's a lot of the country that doesn't. You have a game day and pockets of 4,000 people here, 10,000 people there. You can go online and complete the consultation process. We drop ship a lab kit to your house, or you can drive to the nearest lab. What we found with our telehealth model, it's kind of interesting is patients go in and they want to do with the telehealth and have a consultation online, get their labs done, and they realize, oh, wait, there's a Game Day 20 minutes away or 30 minutes away. I want to go into the office.

Evan Miller [00:32:34]: So we're seeing about large volume of telehealth. Interested patients actually convert to in office because they want the custom feeling and the real handholding. Now, if they're five or six hours away from a game day, yeah, off they go with telehealth. It's important, though, with telehealth that again, that lab interval is the same. And so we're not saying, here's your script, come back in a year, which a lot of these online guys do. And we are very wary. Right. That's why they're charging $49 a month for your program.

Evan Miller [00:33:02]: That's freaking crazy. You know, think about what you get for 49 bucks. Like, it'd be. Be careful of whatever you put in your body for that.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:08]: Yeah, especially. Especially when you're dealing with the endocrine system. Back again to the idea of the young person. We did mention the importance of these lifestyle factors, but then the other thing that pops up a lot is how head injuries or even some kind of genetic condition could make it. So even if you do all the right things, your testes aren't getting the signal to produce testosterone. Now, I think from memory, I could be wrong here. That's called primary hypogonadism. And then secondary would be a problem with the testicles.

Ben Greenfield [00:33:40]: But do you see a lot of cases of primary where people have a head injury or something that's keeping them from producing enough?

Evan Miller [00:33:46]: Sometimes. And they tend to be like a lot of our military population that got Injured or firefighters or police first responders oftentimes have those kind of head injuries that can contribute to that. Mostly not, though. But in those cases, it tends to be those guys.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:01]: And for those people, do you kind of use a similar protocol or is there other things involved that you'd use for head issues like hyperbaric oxygen or something like that?

Evan Miller [00:34:12]: No, similar protocols. Honestly, it's going to have the same bang for the buck at the end of the day in terms of outcomes.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:18]: Okay, got it. Okay, so we've talked about testosterone, HCG, Clomidor, and Clomiphene, Ganatarelin, but then you get into. And I've been hearing a lot more about this. I don't know if it's because of the enhanced games, which I'd love to hear your thoughts on, by the way, but I've been hearing a lot more talk about deca, which I think is also known as Nando. Nandro.

Evan Miller [00:34:38]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:40]: Which one is it? Nando or Nandro?

Evan Miller [00:34:42]: Yeah, Nandro.

Ben Greenfield [00:34:43]: Nandro. Okay, so Nandro or Deca. I was watching a documentary on the enhanced games. The swimmer just blew up. Looked like he was on way more than testosterone. I suspect he maybe was on that epo, I don't know. But what are your thoughts on enhanced games and also the use of Nandro?

Evan Miller [00:35:00]: So look, at game day, we are for the average guy in the United States and now beyond. Once we were in Canada now, and we'll be in multiple countries next year. In England, we'll be in UAE, Dubai.

Ben Greenfield [00:35:14]: Oh, I didn't realize you were expanding internationally. Honestly, that's great because I have a ton of international listeners and followers who are constantly asking me. And usually most of the clinics I know of are US based.

Evan Miller [00:35:25]: Yeah, no, we'll be everywhere next year. Right now we're focused on North America, but next year we'll have many offices throughout the world. So that's coming. Having said that, we kind of stay in our lane. And I don't think any of our offices prescribe Nandro or anything beyond testosterone. Sip unit. We do a medication called Sermorelin, which is a peptide that tells your body to produce more growth hormone. That's a fantastic medication for anti aging energy, weight loss, et cetera.

Evan Miller [00:35:54]: We don't really touch the anabolics much. And, you know, we're guided by what our medical board kind of says. And we really take a lot of pride in trusting their judgment. And we have the best of the best doctors involved. So Nandro is an area we kind of go, eh, not for us. Maybe some of those more fringe concierge places, you know, segueing into the hands games. Look, that's some entertaining stuff. I know the swimmer you're talking about.

Evan Miller [00:36:16]: They'll certainly watch. You know, I think again, it's not to be taken lightly. A lot of the stuff that these guys are on, you know, you can have a lot of complications.

Ben Greenfield [00:36:27]: Yeah, well, I think that's part of the Enhanced Games is like, to compete, you have to pass certain health tests to make sure you're not destroying your body in the process.

Evan Miller [00:36:35]: That's good. Great. Yeah, I didn't know that because, man, you know, you just start shooting up everything you can. Right. Not only physical issues, but psychological, you know.

Ben Greenfield [00:36:42]: Yeah.

Evan Miller [00:36:43]: Some dangerous stuff.

Ben Greenfield [00:36:44]: Yeah. I think the whole idea behind them is they won't test you for illegal performance enhancing drugs because anything's fair game, but they will test you for health and wellness parameters.

Evan Miller [00:36:53]: Okay, makes sense. Interesting. Yeah, Definitely be a viewer, that's for sure.

Ben Greenfield [00:36:58]: Yeah, yeah. So. So the Semorelin, that'd be considered a peptide, right?

Evan Miller [00:37:02]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:03]: Do you guys do other peptides as well? You know, because obviously that's a huge industry.

Evan Miller [00:37:09]: Yeah. Peptides have exploded, so Sermorelin is the most popular. It's fantastic. You know, it's interesting. We have a lot of. A lot of the wives come in, right, with their husband. They're like, this guy's a new man. What about me? What do you have for me? Well, we have a women's brand.

Evan Miller [00:37:23]: We have a women's brand launching soon, but in the meantime, we say, look, what have you tried? And a lot of women have been on the Wegovy semaglutide. Right. The GLP craze. All the latest research though, shows. Right. Hey, maybe this isn't the best thing long term because muscle wasting, right. Your digestive system slows oftentimes to levels that are really dangerous.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:43]: Wait, which one causes that?

Evan Miller [00:37:44]: The GLPs.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:46]: Okay, the GLPs.

Evan Miller [00:37:46]: Yeah, right.

Ben Greenfield [00:37:48]: Okay.

Evan Miller [00:37:49]: A lot of women are flipping over to Sermorelin now because it has a lot of the similar benefits, but you're maintaining muscle mass. Not only that, you know, it's great for their hair, their skin, their nails, all the things that they really privilege, and weight loss as well. So Sermorelin is great for men, it's been great for women. It's the hottest peptide right now for sure. There's some great ones as well, you know, BPC-157, that's fantastic for recovery, you know, if you tried that one. But a lot of the guys were super active.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:18]: That thing is, I sprained my ankle a few weeks ago and that was one of my main go to's.

Evan Miller [00:38:22]: Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:23]: Literally, I would, I didn't even go sub Q systemic. Just jamming. I don't recommend this, but just jamming near the side of injury as close to possible every day.

Evan Miller [00:38:31]: Yeah, no, a lot, A lot of guys are doing that and a ton of success and they're not like, I don't need a cortisone shot. I didn't need surgery. My shoulder feels amazing or my neck pain is gone. So it's really wild and awesome stuff. And then CJC is another one. CJC is a big one for, you know, endurance.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:49]: Yeah. Growth hormone also, Right. If it does CJC usually get that with, with Ipamorelin, right?

Evan Miller [00:38:54]: Yep, exactly.

Ben Greenfield [00:38:55]: Yeah.

Evan Miller [00:38:55]: So the peptides are, you know, they're, they're the new hot thing on the market. Certainly you want to make sure that they're coming from a reputable source. Right now it's kind of the wild west in peptides. And a lot of the crap is, you know, research grade, which should scare anyone if you see a peptide that delivers to your house. This is research grade, not for human consumption. That means. It doesn't mean the rigorous standards it should.

Ben Greenfield [00:39:16]: Yep. A lot, a lot of lipopolysaccharide contamination people have having histaminergic reactions. I see all sorts of stuff now. People freaking out about peptides. The Semorelin though, is interesting. You hear about Tessamorelin, Ipamorelin, and then you have this Sermorelin. Would you say Sermorelin's top of the totem pole when it comes to growth hormone?

Evan Miller [00:39:35]: For sure. Yeah.

Ben Greenfield [00:39:36]: Okay.

Evan Miller [00:39:37]: Absolutely. Yeah. It's the safest. There's the most research around it. You can be on it longer term, sometimes six months. A lot of patients are on it and the outcomes are fantastic. You know, number, number one thing folks feel on Sermorelin is their sleep. They're like, oh, wow, I haven't slept that well in years.

Evan Miller [00:39:56]: And it's, you know, game changer.

Ben Greenfield [00:39:58]: Yeah, that's actually not one that I've used recently or I'm on, but way back in the day I used to work when I, when I used to race. This was like race ironman. 10 years ago there was a company called Millennium Sports and they had not Sermorelin but some kind of like Sermorelin precursing agent. I remember I used to swear by that thing for sleep. After a hard and heavy day of training. But Sermorelin is an interesting one. I don't think a lot of people know about it. So the women's piece, what was it? Is it going to be like Game Day or different name? Same name.

Evan Miller [00:40:27]: So we. One more thing on Sermorelin. It's about to be the hottest peptide in the country. It's about to blow up. Yeah. And we offer it a game day. It's an exciting time for sure. With that peptide specifically.

Evan Miller [00:40:41]: Yeah. So Her Way. Her Way, Health and Hormones is the name of our women's brand. And we have an office in Carlsbad. We're gonna launch the franchise model around it probably early in 2026. And it'll offer women's hormones hormone replacement. If you talk to women who are on hormones, they're like, I feel great, but I had to drive four hours to find the doctor. Or there was a fixed point month wait list.

Evan Miller [00:41:04]: There's just not enough supply for the women who need hormone therapy. We'll also do sexual health, weight loss.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:10]: Yeah. That's incredible. My wife's been working with a practitioner for a little while, and it's just been transformative for her. And she was in great shape and slept well and everything before, but now and her libido's off the roof, which I don't complain about. And it's just like, it's just transformed her being able to work on the endocrine system with somebody who knows what they're doing.

Evan Miller [00:41:30]: Is she doing creams or what she.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:31]: Do pellets or she's like a topical. And then everything for her right now is topical and oral.

Evan Miller [00:41:38]: Okay.

Ben Greenfield [00:41:39]: But she doesn't need to be on very much. So the, the, the issue that I think some people might be thinking about is, okay, this all sounds great, but what if I get on this like, the FDA cracks down and, you know, regulatory agencies start to restrict what a clinic like yours is able to do. What does the landscape look like as far as the regulatory conditions that you have to either battle against or work with?

Evan Miller [00:42:03]: So, yeah, we feel very confident in what we're up to for a few different reasons. Number one, everything we offer at game day has a ton of research around it. And testosterone replacement is FDA approved. It has been for decades. That's not going to impact anything or go away anytime at all. So in terms of the treatment itself, good to go. Number two, we're the brick and mortar space leader. Right.

Evan Miller [00:42:26]: We've done the hard work and not to talk crap on our telehealth competitors, but create a website, drive a bunch of ads to it and then sign patients up. That's a lot simpler than building out an almost 500 unit retail model of medical practices throughout the United States, that people still want to come in and feel trust. And so because we're on site, there's the Ryan hate act, which, not to get too deep in the weeds, but that basically allowed telehealth providers to prescribe controlled substances online. And it was waived during COVID because no one can leave the house. That there's the threat there. Right. That if that goes back to where it was before, COVID means now you can't get testosterone online. Well, guess what? Game day is not not only online.

Ben Greenfield [00:43:09]: You could still just like drive to a clinic.

Evan Miller [00:43:11]: Still drive to a clinic. Not an issue. And we believe in like the personal relationship piece number three is we are writing white papers. We are literally. What my hope is, Ben, is that the industry follows us because there really hasn't been a truly kind of gold standard provider in this space that's done it at this scale. Maybe there's a great clinic in Tampa. Great. Well, guess What? I have 400.

Evan Miller [00:43:35]: And every single one of them does things the right way. How do I know that? Because we have crazy compliance and AI built into every single office. And we want everyone to follow us so we can start giving this industry a better name.

Ben Greenfield [00:43:46]: Yeah, what's that mean? You're writing white papers?

Evan Miller [00:43:48]: We do studies. Yeah, we publish studies on our data. And, you know, we have patients, you know, millions of guys come in, the data pipes into our emr, and we can look at trends. So number one, we can say, hey, here's what we're noticing. Number two, we can say, hey, let's take a group of, you know, former marines, let's put them on testosterone replacement for a year and kind of follow them not only physically, but psychologically. And so we're out there saying, here's the research, here's what we've learned, and then making it readily available. And so we have a team of 350 doctors that have led our white paper team. So we'll start getting those out here in the next four to five months.

Ben Greenfield [00:44:23]: Wow. Anything preliminary that you've found that's interesting.

Evan Miller [00:44:27]: Or notable or nothing yet? Right now it's data compilation, so we can't really comment on results yet.

Ben Greenfield [00:44:34]: Yeah, okay, got it. So in terms of, you know, what a guy, kind of coming back full circle to the symptomology idea, what can a guy expect if they get on testosterone? Like you said, light bulbs on, but let's get specific. Is it, do I build muscle faster? Do I get better erections? Am I hungrier? Am I not as hungry? What are some of the common things that you see?

Evan Miller [00:44:59]: Yeah, so common things. And I think this is why testosterone replacement is so powerful, is because if I were to tell you, hey, Ben, here's medication, you're going to maybe feel better in four months. You're going to be like, yeah, not into it. I want to feel better in three weeks or in a month max. That's what TRT does. It's kind of like that. Oh, shit. Okay, I feel something and I'm feeling better than I did two weeks ago.

Evan Miller [00:45:21]: So it usually happens pretty quickly. Number one is usually kind of mood and energy levels. You're like, huh, I kind of feel happier. Nothing's changed in my life, but I just have more upbeat energy, upbeat attitude and energy levels for sure. So, hey, I don't need that cup of coffee or that, you know, monster drink at 3pm anymore. I can just get through my afternoon without any caffeine and they start to notice this type of thing where, like, I just feel better, you know, I don't need as much support throughout the day with stimulants. I can get through my workout easier. Putting a little more muscle mass.

Ben Greenfield [00:45:56]: Whoa.

Evan Miller [00:45:57]: I woke up and I'm, I'm ready to go. Hope my wife's, you know, around ready. You know, sexual performance is usually peaking as well by like month two. And certainly, you know, hunger, that's a part of it. You'll probably be hungrier in the early days.

Ben Greenfield [00:46:12]: Most, mostly because you're more active or have put on more muscle mass, I'm assuming.

Evan Miller [00:46:16]: Yeah, exactly. I, I, you know, I compare it to like, you just kind of just want to go out and do something, you know, like, what can I do today?

Ben Greenfield [00:46:23]: Yeah, I think it was, Maybe it was Dr. Andrew Huberman who described testosterone as being something like a hormone of forward progress. It's kind of funny you said I'm walking on a treadmill during the podcast, but yeah, it is true. You have that motivation, that desire to complete another rep, complete another step, complete another task. Yeah, it's kind of hard to describe, but it literally not like in a random, distracted task rabbit mode, but you definitely feel almost like a greater dopaminergic response to any element of professional or personal progress.

Evan Miller [00:46:56]: Totally. Yeah. That idea that it rewards effort, you know, effort you're giving it kind of. I want more of it.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:02]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been fantastic. Obviously, I'm sure there's, there's guys listening in, maybe women eventually for this Her Day thing who are interested. I'm going to put all the show notes in the podcast. I think you guys gave us some kind of like a link or a discount that people can use for, for signing up. So BenGreenfieldLife.com/ GameDay podcast podcast again, you guys. I try everything that I talk about on this show.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:28]: I've been working with Game Day for about three months. Super impressed with the professionalism and what they put together. So I can stand by this. That's what I'm using now for my own hormone optimization. So BenGreenfieldLife.com/ GameDay podcast is where the shownotes are. You can leave your questions over there. Your comments, I read them all. Evan, thank you so much, man.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:48]: This has been super informational.

Evan Miller [00:47:50]: Thanks for having me, dude. This was awesome.

Ben Greenfield [00:47:52]: All right folks, I'm Ben Greenfield along with Evan Miller from Game Day Health, signing out from BenGreenfieldLife.com have an incredible week to discover even more tips, tricks, hacks and content to become the most complete, boundless version of you, visit BenGreenfieldLife.com in compliance with the FTC guidelines, please assume the following about links and posts on this site. Most of the links going to products are often affiliate links, of which I receive a small commission from sales of certain items. But the price is the same for you and sometimes I even get to share a unique and somewhat significant discount with you. In some cases, I might also be an investor in a company I mention. I'm the founder, for example, of Kion LLC, the makers of Kion branded supplements and products, which I talk about quite a bit. Regardless of the relationship, if I post or talk about an affiliate link to a product, it is indeed something I personally use, support and with full authenticity and transparency recommend. In good conscience, I personally vet each and every product that I talk about. My first priority is providing valuable information and resources to you that help you positively optimize your mind, body and spirit.

Ben Greenfield [00:49:09]: And I'll only ever link to products or resources, affiliate or otherwise, that fit within this purpose. So there's your fancy legal disclaimer.